THE DEMOLITION OF THE ‘PROOF’ AGAINST KNOX AND SOLLECITO STANDS

(Updated)

Close Encounters of the Strange Type

Court consultant Stefano Conti and Carla Vecchiotti were well prepared for the main objection, the one about Raffaele’s DNA alleles on the bra clasp that are still there (despite, as we know, the two scientists had recovered more alleles from at least two other male persons).

I’ll save you the scientific details, but in a few words: Vecchiotti brought as an example a single marker of the whole autosomic profile on the clasps, and she showed that in that case there are not Raffaele’s alleles at all. Besides the two belonging to Meredith, indeed, in that marker there are now two more alleles (previously thought to be stutters) that C&V recovered. But those new alleles don’t belong to Raffaele.

It’s just one marker over 16, but it makes Raffaele’s profile incomplete and shows how the presence of all male alleles comes from a mysterious event, certainly not from the crime.
This for the autosomic STRs.

There is still the Y-chromosome profile, perfectly compatible with the one of Raffaele. But C&V reminded the court that the Y-chromosome is not exclusive — it may be shared by other males with a common ancestor.

True, in the database which stores 30,000 male profiles (but only 5,000 are Italians) nobody else was found with that Y-chromosome. Guess who came in to help C&V solve this problem? The president Pratillo Hellmann, in person, who explained that the fact that there’s no one else in the database with that Y-chromosome doesn’t mean that nobody else exists with it. Someone else in Italy must exist and that, for Hellmann, seems to be enough to doubt the value of that piece of evidence.

There was as well the other predicted objection, that many of the guidelines they referred to were after 2007.

And C&V got rid of it in the predicted way, just by saying that the Caddy report dates 1999.

C&V are two scientists, not two logicians, it shouldn’t be too difficult to question their reasoning. Indeed there were arguments that threw them into a crisis.

For instance:

True, the scientific police didn’t follow the guidelines. But how did that bring Meredith and Raffaele’s DNA on blade and clasps?

If the precautions against contamination weren’t taken, why were the two items contaminated with Meredith/Raffaele’s DNA and not with the DNA of those who handled them?

True, the glove was dirty, can you say that dirt was Raffaele’s DNA?

True, the contamination in the lab is possible, but did you know that no test was done in 6 days prior to the testing of the knife? (actually that sounded new to the defense).

Questions they weren’t able to answer.

(Had they followed our discussions, such questions at least wouldn’t have caught them unprepared. But they didn’t follow our discussions…).

Many times they were cornered by the questions of Comodi (who was speaking on behalf of Stefanoni and lectured by all prosecution experts).

But there to solve all impasse — there was Hellmann.

As for the precautions in the lab, especially the one of the negative/positive controls (which, as we remember, was not documented they were done) Comodi/Stefanoni, as we predicted, brought the argument of the ‘of course’:  If  Stefanoni didn’t take note of the controls, it’s because you don’t take note of things you always do. Just like the surgeon who doesn’t write in the report of an operation ‘I washed my hands’, ‘I wore the gloves’, ‘I sterilized the lancets’…
But Hellman came in to help and explained that a surgery room doesn’t have anything to do with DNA… And he stopped the attack.

Having failed the card of the ‘of course’, Comodi/Stefanoni pulled the ace out of their sleeve: the documentation of the negative/positive controls exist! It was delivered to the pre-trial hearing of October 8 2008! (According to them…)

So, Comodi gave to President Helmann two photocopies that document the controls.
The only problem is that Vecchiotti looked at the two pieces of paper and saw they had a different code from the one of the tests made on knife and clasp. Not only that: the codes on the fotocopies were almost unreadable.
Hellman and Zanetti wanted to go look for the proof that the documents had been really filed on October 2008 anyway. But after almost an hour of searching, they couldn’t find anything!

So Hellmann returned into the courtroom and decided not to admit that presumed proof that the controls were done.
Comodi insisted. And here, surprise: not only Helmann said definitely NO, but he pointed out that even if the documentation existed, even if it was really filed on October 8 2008, even if it was perfect, even if the negative/positive controls were done, that wouldn’t have ANY importance, since the contamination could have still occurred before!

Bye Bye Baby…

THE KNIFE IS READY

(for the drawer)

It may look like nothing but instead what Hellmann said was literally devastating for the prosecution team. It left them speechless for a looong moment…

We were at the very end of the hearing and all day Comodi/Stefanoni had tried to demonstrate that the contamination couldn’t have occurred in the lab and couldn’t have occurred in the previous phase (of collecting, transporting, storing).

But Hellman, instead, showed to still believe that the contamination could have occurred before the lab got in possession of the two exhibits!

What a terrible waste of time for Comodoni… (Comodi + Stefanoni)

Knox’s lawyer Luciano Ghirga, instead, got rid of the knife with one only question: ‘Could the knife have been cleaned-up if starch was found on it?’ And C&V answer was, of course: ‘NO’.

‘Bye bye baby’ I titled when the DNA was found on the knife, in those horrible days, when they were telling us they had proof two students had killed her friend. A proof that never arrived.
Today I can return that Bye bye baby, but the other way around, since that imaginary murder weapon can definitely return into its drawer.

So Hellman doesn’t care what happened in the lab! That’s a bombshell for those who know the trial: he seems to have understood that the contamination happened before.

And that is consistent with the constant support Hellman gave to his experts during the whole hearing.

In other words it’s quite clear by now that even James Watson in person could come to defend those tests. But their fate is sealed.

After all, the innocence of Amanda and Raffaele was already proven even at the first trial. It was demonstrated even at the first trial the eyewitnesses were wrong. It was known that DNA below the 50 RFU is not reliable. Or that The Knife was collected by cops. Or that the bra clasp was lost for six weeks and three inspections were run on it. Or that the luminol footprint was going towards Meredith’s room. Or that the footprint on the bathmat was not attributable to Raffaele. Or that the cops lied when they said Raffaele called the 112 after the police arrived. Etc.

But those judges had that idea of guilt, and against an idea nothing can be done.

Well, now they have another idea.

The battle of DNA will continue with next hearings, September 5, 6, 7. More waste of time. Then the closing arguments. Verdict before the end of September.

Comments
  1. perugiashock says:

    Enter your comment here….

    • If I were you, Frank, I would feel vindicated from all of the persecution you’ve had.
      This has to feel just wonderful for you, as it does for all of us who knew all these things
      you’ve written about to be true.

      IT FEELS GREAT!!!!

      Love it,….justice being served is an amazing, encouraging, worth-it-all feeling. And it has come at great expense to you…to others.

      The good guys don’t always win, but this time they WIN!

      In the South, in America, you would hear a person who is very excited say “woot woot:!

      And so I leave you with one very big “WOOT WOOT!!!!”.
      :) , ~michelle

  2. struoc says:

    thanks so much Frank, another fascinating piece.

    more DNA talk…Sept 5,6,7 a waste of time….Maresca will pretend to be a DNA expert, and we know the rest.

    quoted “C&V are two scientists, not two logicians” , well said.

  3. perugiashock says:

    Thank you, my pleasure…

  4. randy2438 says:

    Frank,

    Why don’t you question the defense lawyers as to why they don’t ask for house arrest in light of the prolonged delay caused mostly by the prosecution and their witnesses? Stefanoni caused the independent expert report to be delayed by refusing to turn over the electronic data files. Now Maresca wants to hear Stefanoni again….delay delay….fine but the two innocents should be able to wait in comfort and not continue to be held.

    The defense should ask at every session…and complain like hell that there never was a case to hold them. If they don’t complain then there is no problem as I see it. The European Court Of Human Rights could then look at the lengthy process and unjustified jailing and the refusal of house arrest and file yet another charge of Human Rights violations against Italy.

    I still say these defense lawyers aren’t worth crap. They just want fees…they do not fight for their clients rights. In light of the expert report Hellmann should have ordered the court to remain in session until this case is resolved. Cancel some vacations instead of making innocents persons sweat out jail in the sweltering summer. Or at the very least grant house arrest…but the stupid lawyers don’t even ask.

  5. rosemontague says:

    Thanks Frank for a very informative post. This is stuff curiously missing from various news reports.

  6. Fascinating. I guess the dog ate Stefanoni’s homework. What a bunch of desperate liars.

  7. komponisto says:

    “In other words it’s quite clear by now that even James Watson in person could come to defend those tests.”

    To say nothing of Giuseppe Novelli — whose silence continues to be deafening.

    “C&V are two scientists, not two logicians”

    Well, I’ve always wondered what Odifreddi would say about this case. I can’t imagine he’d be fooled in the slightest.

    Thanks for this post, Frank; the media reports today have been woefully inadequate. Though I wish you *wouldn’t* spare us the scientific details!

    Speaking of which, the translation of the Conti-Vecchiotti report is nearing completion: http://knoxdnareport.wordpress.com

  8. Frank, there are many things I do not understand about Italian politics maybe you can explain this one to me:

    What was the point of that Piero Angeloni letter read a letter in court today? The whole world has heard the details of the Conti-Vecchiotti report and has seen the video of the police processing the crime scene. You would think they/he would acknowledge deficiencies in this instance, assure people that it was an isolated incident, and propose some corrective action (i.e. fix the bad apples). Instead distancing themselves, what he essentially seemed to say was… This is how we do business in this case and always…what’s the problem? It was almost like jumping on the Titanic before the ship splits in half.

  9. randy2438 says:

    Frank,

    Do you still look at the court records? Perhaps you could look to see if Stefanoni deposited Control sample data in 2008 like she has told the court. And if the judge could not find it and if the experts say it is a different index number then why is no one launching an investigation to this clear violation of lying in court?

  10. I see the esteemed Dr. Novelli has rendered his professional opinion that contamination of the bra fastener is less likely than a meteor strike on the courthouse. I hope this remarkable statement will get the professional recognition it deserves.

  11. CodyJoeBibby says:

    Presumably a meteor struck three times since there are two other male profiles on the clasp.

  12. CodyJoeBibby says:

    Perhaps Hellmann realises what Frank and others have said many times about the knife. Regardless of lab tests, injecting Raffaelle’s kitchen knife into the case never made the slightest sense.

    There was never any sensible explanation as to how it got to the cottage and back to Raffaelle’s.

    I think Hellmann has no intention of readmitting it as the murder weapon, regardless of the arguments presented in September.

  13. Chris Halkides has been passing around an interesting link:

    http://www.nacdl.org/public.nsf/0/6285f6867724e1e685257124006f9177

    Forensic DNA contamination seems to be more common that meteor strikes, in the US at least.

  14. komponisto says:

    charliewilkes:

    “I see the esteemed Dr. Novelli has rendered his professional opinion that contamination of the bra fastener is less likely than a meteor strike on the courthouse. I hope this remarkable statement will get the professional recognition it deserves.”

    WOW. I didn’t believe you at first, but Google revealed Italian press reports confirming this. (Previously I hadn’t even seen confirmation he was in the courtroom.) It almost sounds like he was giving testimony (he said “this courthouse”, as if he were inside it when he made his statement), but we know that isn’t the case. Regardless, I am surprised and confused. My probability of Amanda and Raffaele’s guilt has just doubled, from something below 1/1000 to something merely below 1/500. If he says this or something similar in court testimony it could potentially reach 1/100. Acquittal probability is down to 70% (from 80% where it had returned after Frank’s post).

    My respect for Novelli has taken a much greater hit, needless to say. Someone with those credentials really ought to know better.

  15. Frank, excellent reporting again.
    So it seems Hellmann made his mind about the reasonable doubt in this case. Prosecution delaying the case first by withholding the data and now by dragging the DNA testimony is only irritating Hellmann?

  16. I think the prosocutors are purposely dragging the case out so they can keep them in prison as long as possible its a shame they do not ask for bail for these kids I just makes me sick that two innocent people are in prison and all they do is take there vacations like nothing is wrong
    while Amanda and Raf suffer.

  17. perugiashock says:

    Yes, it’s really a shame that they have to spend another summer inside. But you can tell lawyers are literally traumatized for all the unbelievable opposition they went through and the cruelty they experienced in the past 4 years.
    This case should really be brought to the Court of Human Rights.

  18. perugiashock says:

    You know, komponisto, the report has a high scientific value, but from the logical point of view…
    Luckily, though, there are Hellmann and Zanetti this time…

  19. perugiashock says:

    That letter was simply pathetic. A long litany telling all the titles and the certifications that the scientific police has…
    I don’t know who cares about the titles after having seen all the disasters they always do.
    If that one is the chief imagine the others… People know whether believing the titles or their own words while in action: “it’s all absurd…. disorganization beyond belief”…
    I didn’t even waste my time in telling people about that letter for how ridiculous it was…

    What they’ve done in this case is nothing. It was the time they worked better…

    This year they found on the rope of Alberica Filo della Torre, killed in Rome in 1991, the hair of the son of Annamaria Franzoni, killed 1,000 miles away in 2002…

  20. perugiashock says:

    “Do you still look at the court records? Perhaps you could look to see if Stefanoni deposited Control sample data in 2008 like she has told the court. And if the judge could not find it and if the experts say it is a different index number then why is no one launching an investigation to this clear violation of lying in court?”

    I’ve updated with the precise date they provided, so it was very easy for Hellmann and all his staff to check it out. If they didn’t find it… it means there isn’t.
    However, it’s no interest of the defense to inquire about that.
    As for an investigation, they didn’t launch it when the cops were caught lying, or when the name or the one who was leaking docs to the press came out…
    Let alone now, for two useless and unreadable pieces of paper…

  21. perugiashock says:

    “I see the esteemed Dr. Novelli has rendered his professional opinion that contamination of the bra fastener is less likely than a meteor strike on the courthouse.”

    Ha, remember that he means an accidental contamination…

  22. perugiashock says:

    “Perhaps Hellmann realises what Frank and others have said many times about the knife. Regardless of lab tests, injecting Raffaelle’s kitchen knife into the case never made the slightest sense.

    There was never any sensible explanation as to how it got to the cottage and back to Raffaelle’s.

    I think Hellmann has no intention of readmitting it as the murder weapon, regardless of the arguments presented in September.”

    WOOT WOOT!!!

  23. To me it seems that Hellmann has opened the door for the lawyers and their trained seals to put on a circus that will take up most of the fall and obscure the findings of the report in a cloud of bellicose rhetoric. “Italy’s forensic investigators have never, in thousands of cases, made a single mistake! It is more likely that a meteorite will destroy the courtroom!”

    If Italy’s top scientists are willing to prostitute themselves to protect the honor of the thugs in Perugia, the public will largely believe it, or won’t know what to believe. Will Hellmann be able to stand up to that kind of pressure, even if he wants to? After yesterday’s hearing, I have little confidence that he will.

    One thing is different, though… the report is out there, for independent reviewers to examine. They understand the subject matter. They won’t believe contamination is less likely than a meteor strike, no matter who makes that claim.

  24. CodyJoeBibby says:

    The question is, what does Hellmann really think of the case? Have there been enough hints, told by Frank and others, that Hellmann believes the case is bogus?

    But what will he do? Bow to the pressure of the police and prosecutors, or go against them and free the students?

  25. Kitrinkles says:

    Thank you for the informative reporting. I wanted to clarify something if possible: my understanding based on your report is that Judge Hellmann refused to accept the negative control tests on the PCR knife blade samples into evidence. Am I reading this correctly? Is this the final word on the controls or will Stefoni be able to re-address this when she is in court? If this really is the final word on the controls it seems that 100% there is no way the knife can be admissible as evidence. If this is the case I think it definitely calls all the rest of the DNA evidence into question…it’s such a glaring error I find it hard to imagine they weren’t run and documented…I’m not a forensic scientist, but I do have a PhD in the plant biotech area and have done a reasonable amount of PCR work myself and I just can’t think of any scenario that wouldn’t obviously include a negative control test. Thank you for your response and thoughtful reporting, I’m very intrigued by this DNA evidence debate.

    • perugiashock says:

      I know you can’t believe what you are reading. But it’s exactly like that. He refused to admit the presumed documentation for the negative/positive controls, and yes, that’s the final word.

      I see that you understand the importance of that NO.

  26. Kitrinkles says:

    *(re: my above post, I apologize for misspelling Dr. Stefanoni’s name)

  27. Kitrinkles says:

    Thank you for your quick reply. I agree, it’s a very important ruling for sure.

  28. randy2438 says:

    Well Perugia Shock,

    I understand how important that NO is! But I also remember in this same court room a dirty trick pulled by the prosecution and with Massei’s blessing where they were able to ignore a ruling of the Italian Supreme Court. No one seems to have paid for that sin yet. Except for the innocent students that is.

    This trial seems like something out of an old bad spaghetti western ….give em a fair trial and then lets hang em….supper’s a waiting at home.

  29. CodyJoeBibby says:

    A lot of things in the Massei Report were decided on the basis that ‘Amanda killed Meredith, therefore she must have done X, Y and Z’.

  30. struoc says:

    I am curious what the recent findings did for the lay-judges from the Massei trial.
    Do they speak of the trial, or is it not encouraged to speak to journalist’s now?
    If I recall they struggled and cried and saw the video.

    Maybe these lay-judges will spend August reading? I would think so.

  31. Well with out the neg/pos controls the results of any DNA test are absolutly worthless.

  32. randy2438 says:

    Hey there Perugia Shock,

    We have been hearing rumors that at the last hearing Hellman told Comodi that she could no longer refer to the knife blade DNA as Meredith Kerchers DNA. Is this true?

  33. randy2438 says:

    I think its about time for a Mignini interview. Ask what he thinks about the latest findings of the Independent experts. Also ask him if he plans to change the TOD given the known facts of the case.

    That it appears impossible to prove a time of death at 11:45 given the facts of the case and that a more reasonable TOD would be 9:20 PM knowing that three hours is the average time from the start of a meal that it takes for food to pass to the duodenum and we know that the duodenum was empty and properly ligatured at exam and that we know the last meal started between 6 and 6:30 PM. And that we have this information reviewed by additional doctors beyond the experts who muddied the truth by inserting the complete emptying of the stomach rather than the more accurate lag time for food to pass to the duodenum.

    6:30 plus 3 equals 9:30 PM for the TOD. We have the additional evidence that Meredith started a call to her mom at 8:56 PM and that call was interrupted for some reason and that call was never retried after that… which is a strong indication that she was attacked by then as it would be normal for her to speak to her mother especially since her mom was ill. More evidence of a 9:20 TOD is the fact that Meredith was still fully clothed including her shoes and jacket when she was attacked. Had she been home for hours as the prosecution claims then why does she still wear her jacket and shoes? And why did she never turn up her heat to warm the cottage from the cold temperature in these phantom hours? And why did she leave her wet laundry unattended in these hours before her death? All answered because she was attacked by Rudy shortly after she returned home that night. She had no time to recall mom. She had no time to remove her jacket or shoes. She had no time to turn up the heat. She could do none of this because she was being attacked by Rudy between 9:05 (when she arrived home) and 9:20 when she died. 500 cc of stomach contents never passed to her duodenum in three hours which is the average lag time according to every expert in the world and according to every circumstantial bit of evidence on that matter.

    So Doctor (ha) Mignini…how do you justify and prove a TOD past 11 PM? Don’t forget about the broken down car people who saw or heard nothing from 10:30 to 11:30 or even later.

    Where is your proof Doctor? In the lake with Narduchi

  34. struoc says:

    another week, no word from the prosecution about legal-plans to defend the Perfect Job.

    obviously, the Perfect Squad has to convince everyone that the Knife is the murder weapon.

    they have a burden to remind everyone, that the knife Amanda used in the Prosecutions Animated movie in the last trial, is the real deal.

    Sure it had 20RFU, No Blood and Not Cleaned, didn’t fit the wounds, seems illogical to be put back in the drawer…….but they have to try.

    I guess their biggest concern is if they can’t keep the knife in, they’ll have to make an entirely new animated video for the closing arguments.

  35. struoc says:

    silence before the storm?

  36. Sienna Reid says:

    Frank is there any word in the street? Any news? Where is it best for me to ask you a few questions?

  37. struoc says:

    The DNA “is just one element of the accusatory case,” one prosecutor, Manuela Comodi, said in a telephone interview before leaving for her summer holidays. Apart from other physical elements tying the couple to the crime, “other proof must be considered,” she said, starting with their alibi and a break-in at the apartment that prosecutors believe was staged to deflect suspicion “from someone who lived in the house, and that person could only be Amanda.”
    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/01/world/europe/01italy.html?_r=1&pagewanted=2

    A small preview of the prosecutions closing plans.

  38. randy2438 says:

    Yes but Comodi is an idiot.

    Thay have a solid alibi no different than Filomena and her boyfried had. Toto is gone Comodi.
    As for the staged breakin I saw nothing that the prosecution presented that would lead any sane person to believe there was any staged break-in. In fact all the evidence shows a real breakin by a known burgular Rudy Guede who used the exact method in other cases. What you lack this time Comodi (Mignini) is a foolish judge who will fall for whatever crap you feed him.

    In fact this judge has already called the prosecution “less than forthcoming” (liars) and the judges are aware of how you tried to sneek in false netural data sheets at the last hearing. What a wonderful parting thought for the judges.

    You are done Comodi. I expect they will lead Stefanoni and Mignini out in handcuffs. I cant wait to hear Stefanoni on cross-exam…its coming soooonnnnn…can you hear the clock ticking??? They should throw the lot of you into prison…I hope they do….

  39. struoc says:

    the clock ticks…. this time at closing there will be no Knife, no Bra Clasp….

    this time the court was not be delayed due to Stefanoni being obstinate and refusing to turn over “all” the information. Now it seems her data is considered “garbage information” that no one cares to see.

    Commodi can try to defend her Holy Grail of Evidence, the Knife, maybe she’ll have a great new humorous one liner and a grin….

    but I’ll bet, Hellman and Zanetti will laugh.

  40. randy2438 says:

    Notice how little Mignini is hiding in the closet with his life jacket on…or has he already jumped ship with the first rats off?

  41. Time for the September 5th smoke and mirrors show…. brought to you by Rocky and Bullwinkle…you know…”watch me pull a rabbit out of a hat…”

    The real question is which one is Rocky and which one is Bullwinkle ;)

  42. Can we expect any new prosecution magic tricks? They seem to be running out.

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